"What Ifs" of history

[Kobayashi]

I'll start with the big one: What if Hitler had died in World War I?

The scenario (following some assumptions):
http://www.worldwar1.com/heritage/hitler2.htm]28th (http://www.codboards.com/redirect.php?[url) September 1918.[/url] A Pvt. H. Tandey of the British army sees a young, wounded man crawl into his line of sight. Instead of letting him go, he fires his rifle and shoots the German soldier dead. The German soldier's name? Lance Corporal Adolf Hitler.

What happens next?

Hitler never joins Anton Drexler's Party. Mein Kamf is never written.

My best guess is this: after the defeat of Germany, the reperations, WSC, polarisation still occurs. However, since there is no credible right-wing party (Hitler's oratory skills made the NSDAP) Germans polarise instead to the left - the KPD (Kommunist Party auf Deutschland). It is likely under the KPD all other parties are banned, and a similar state to the USSR is created. Germany and the Soviet Union develope close ties, and would possibly invade Poland together (Stalin agreed to it with the Nazis - he'd be all the more keen with the KPD). However, since Germany would not likely have had Anschluss with Austria (largely Hitler's idea, as he regarded Germany and Austria as one nationality anyway. And as a bonus for him it broke the TofV). Because the KPD would not have the same aims as Hitler (i.e., return to "glorius German nation" - meaning rearmament) it is unlikely they'd annex Czechoslovakia, hence, no appeasement. No doubt Britain and France would be very uncomfortable with communism next door, but they'd be unable to do anything about it. Even with Hitler in power Britain and France were militarily weak from decades of disarming. Of course, it's impossible to predict really what the KPD would do, or how well they would fare - again, I'm presuming they'd be like the USSR.
Germany's Facist neighbour, Italy, might have had a pop at them - it's an interesting scenario. "Il Duce" was a big fan of the old Roman empire and would jump at the chance to include Germany in it. See the Abbysinia crisis in the 1930s. No doubt he would have lost, the Italians lost in the desert to Ethiopians weilding spears. With no facism in Germany perhaps the Spanish Civil War might have gone in a different direction.
Japan still invades Manchuria in 1933, proceding into the rest of China. British forces mobilise as Hong Kong and Singapore are threatened by the Japanese. So to do the Dutch and Belgians, as they are not under German occupation. The French re-inforce Indo-China and Vietnam (Ho Chi Mihn doesn't defeat them in '54?).
Hitler never wanted the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbour, so in this timeline the event still occurs. America immediately declares war against Japan. What follows is a shorter version of the WWII Pacific campaign - European (British, French, Dutch, Belgians), Australian and United States forces all fighting against Japan. Since the United States has no European theatre to worry about, it is able to bring its full military and industrial strength against the Japanese. The Japanese are forced out of Indo-China by Europeans, whilst the US and Australia "Island-hops" toward the mainland. Since more Japanese troops will be taken up, the campaign will be easier. The British and American navies are able to blockade Japanese harbours with no commitments in Europe, likewise they will have air supremacy. Tokyo is leveled by conventional bombing by allied powers, the Japanese are completely starved of resources and surrender, without the use of the atomic bomb (no German scientists would have been working toward a Nazi atomic bomb, and therefore cannot defect - the Manhatten Project starts after the war).
What follows next is anyone's guess. What is sure though is that man would not set foot on the moon in 1969. Will not V1, V2, and early jet aircraft developed by the luftwaffe the British Meteor is likely the first jet aircraft, in the late 1950s (? again an assumption).
From then on out I can only envision a sort of "Cold War +", with the Iron Curtain consuming all of Germany (which hasn't been ravaged by war). Maybe it heats up, maybe it doesn't.

[Sage]

Thats a good hypothesis, and even fairly believable...I could see that.

[Slava45]

:thumbsup: Somebody should write a fiction book about that.

[mcdarkness]

i always wondered what if japan landed a massive army on the hawaiian islands....they could of used that as a staging area to launch a offensive on the u.s....this might of worked during the bombing of pearl harbour when america wasn't official in the war :w00t:

[papa_kulikov]

im reading a book called "what if?"......its the what ifs of military history..........there are alot of different senarios that are every interesting.......you guys should check it out....theres also a "what if 2"
lol....

[imported_Matbacon]

What if Hitler won stalingrad

i can't write a hole paragraph hes a short version

Hitler would have got more troops to kursk and kharkov and win (This was because many russians died and they counden't help at kursk)

i suspect that the german armay would of invaded moscow and they might win ( depends on numbers) then the german armay would have reinforced the defenses at iwo jima and fight back the americans the americans of coast would of dropped the atomb bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki but this wounden't matter

meanwhile on the western front D-day did go well except on omaha beach and the americans,british and canadians all whent to berlin the germans where warn about this and put up defenses (lets say anti-tank guns) V-E day would come at 1950 when the americans dropped a atomb bomb over berlin Hitler of coast wasen't there. He was in russia
V-R day (Victory over Russia) would come 2 years later when americans started bombing moscow(where Hitler was) and Hitler would of died the americans also realased Stalin from a POW camp what Hitler put him in. The japanese would of surrendered because they where faced with austrailians,americans,british,canadinas and russians (a few where left) so the war would of ended in 1954 where V-J day happened

[Kobayashi]

I respectfully disagree, matbacon.

Here's the scenario:
October 30th, 1942
Field Marshall Paulus's 6th Army grinds to a halt outside the city of Stalingrad on the river Volga. They dig in to repel Soviet counterattacks using foxholes and patrols, and set up artillerly positions (including use of railguns) to pound Soviet positions. The time is used by the Luftwaffe to use bomb the city's munitions factories, and other military targets.

November 1st, 1942
With winter approaching fast, Hitler realises the blunder of previous armies in Russia - the bitterly cold Russian winter. Outfitted with only light clothing, such a winter would be devastating to the moral of German troops, as well as cause machinary to seize up. He orders a shipment of long winter coats and oil to the Russian front.

November 19th, 1942
The Germans maintain a steady supply route behind their lines, which are just outside the city. Artillery is constantly resupplied and used to batter the beligured Soviet troops garrisoned inside the city. Paulus knows streetfighting would be too costly, and relies on his solid front line, supplies, artillery and the luftwaffe.

February 13th, 1943
Having held out the winter thanks to their equipment, the Germans still hold a defensive front line encircling the city. Thanks to not being killed in the city, the Germans have extra men to spare, and mount an attack over the other side of the Volga to completely surround the city. Paulus knows this tactic has been employed in Leningrad, but here in Stalingrad the Russians have no way of resupply if he encircled them, unlike the frozen lake in Leningrad. The Germans take light casualties assaulting Soviet positions with Panzers, and are able to cut off the city.

From here it is only a matter of time before the Russians in the city are defeated. Artillery bombardment intensifies.

February 15th, 1943
Unable to withstand any more punishment, Vasily Chuikov, the Russian commander surrenders to Paulus. The German forces begin the advance to Moscow, where Stalin refuses to leave.

February 21st, 1943
While it's too late to save the Afrika Corps from several defeats, the Germans are easily able to capture the oil-rich Caucasus mountains and use the oil to resupply thier tanks, an invaluable commodity, needed in Africa.

March 19th, 1943
The Afrika Korps recieves desperately needed supplies of Panzers and fuel. With the Allies breaking through at the Mareth Line, the supplies come just in time.

March 20th, 1943
Allied commanders are stunned as the Afrika Korps new tank divisions are brought to bear. The overconfident Allies are pushed back, and the Afrika Korps is able to be resupplied by the sea. The Battle for the Mareth line is won by the Germans.

June 6th, 1943
After fierce and costly street fighting, Moscow is captured. Stalin is kiled in a bombing raid. Remaining Red Army Troops surrender in droves. However, the siege of Leningrad and resistance in the north is ongoing. With Moscow fallen, the Germans have no trouble flanking the supply lines.

June 31st, 1943
Leningrad falls. Hitler celebrates his victory over the USSR in Berlin with Paulus. The Afrika Korps is slowly pushing its way back through Tunisia thanks to oil from the Caucasus mountains.

July 17th, 1943
Rommel, fully recovered from his illness in late March, uses his armour to push through the Lybian border. British and US forces are routed.

July 31st, 1943
With no pressure for more men or armour in the east, Rommel is resupplied in Tripoli. He pushes on down the North African coast to Banghazi.

August 1st, 1943
Churchill and Roosevelt attend the Quebec Conferance. Operation Overlord is penned out.

October 11th, 1943
Rommel hits a snag when he enters the city of his previous defeat, Tobruk. The Allies defend the area fiercely.

November 4th, 1943
After almost a month of fighting, Rommel captures Tobruk, along with thousands of Allied men. He knows they no longer have the strength to defend the Egyptian border, and makes plans to be in Cairo by the end of the month.

November 26th, 1943
Rommel encounters little resistance from the stunned Allied forces as he rolls into Cairo. Hitler invites him back to Berlin for a victory celebration.

November 30th, 1943
Reeling from their defeat in Africa, Churchill and Roosevelt attend the Teheran Conference. Churchill urges that Overlord must happen ASAP, lest the Germans set foot on British soil. Wartime production is stepped up by Great Britain and the United States.

May 2nd, 1944
Despite tense moments, the Germans have not invaded Britain, Hitler believing that the British will enter peace talks due to massive damage done by U-Boat patrols.

May 29th, 1944
The remaining Allies have gathered up a force of just under two million men. 820 planes remain after fending off the Luftwaffe for so long. The order is given to move on the beaches of Normandy.

May 30th, 1944
The Allies have established a beach head, but are understrength. Rommel orders his panzer divisions to Normandy immediately.

June 5th, 1944
The Allies are unable to resupply due to storms. Rommel's panzer divisions close in, despite interferance from Hitler.

June 6th, 1944
Allies are supplied with Sherman tanks after weather clears up.

June 9th, 1944
After fierce fighting in the bocages of Normandy, the Allied tank divisions are devasted by Rommel's superior Panzers. German re-enforcements flood Normandy, Allied forces begin retreating from Cotentin Peninsula, unable to reach Cherbourg.

July 1st, 1944
Operation Overlord is over in just over a month. The Allies attempt to evacuate the beaches Dunkirk-style, but for the majority of the army it is too late. German troops capture thousands of men and tons of Allied equipment.

December 31st, 1944
After a few more botched operations in Europe/Africa, the Allies cannot match German production speed. The Allies are forced to sue for peace.

[imported_Matbacon]

Yes ok

ok hes one what if hitler never attacked pearl harbour?

try that one your good

[Kobayashi]

It was the Japanese that attacked Pearl Harbour, not Hitler, but I'll try and play out that scenario to the best of my abilities:

November 1st, 1941
Hitler announces a suprise Axis conferance in Milan. He, Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito are to attend.

November 3rd, 1941
Emperor Hirohito unveils plans to bomb Pearl Harbour. Hitler and Mussolini protest, instead stating that their war effort must focus on European interests in South East Asia. Emperor Hirohito reluctantly agrees.

November 26th, 1941
Secretary of State Hull presented "peace terms" to the Japanese. The terms presented by Hull were such that in order for Japan to agree to them they would have had to withdraw from China, and essentially end all hostilities, something that the administration knew was not going to happen.

November 27th, 1941
Japan predictably rejects these terms. Japanese diplomats in Washington encourage American neutrality, and recieve a standing ovation from their audience. American oil embargo of July lifted.

December 2nd, 1941
The seige of Stalingrad is ongoing, with mounting German casualties. Japan readies its troops to move on Soviet land in the east.

December 7th, 1941
Japanese forces mount a suprise attack on the Russian port of Vladivostok. The city is taken in a few short hours.

December 8th, 1941
Roosevelt warns Prime Minister Konoe in a personal message any further Japanese attack on the Soviet Union "would jeopardize the negotiations in Washington and undermine the peace in the Pacific." Sixteen Japanese divisions are mobilized, but they would not be engaged in any action for the time being. Prime Minister Konoe states the importance of "bringing the war in China to it's natural conclusion".
Observing Vichy France, Japanese-controlled puppet governments are established in Xinjiang, Xizang, Qinhai and Inner Mongolia. Japanese troops begin to withdraw from China, and formations of seperate puppet governments in Sichuan, Yunnan, Heilongjiang, Jilin, Shannxi Guangxi and Guangdong are to be established in the coming months, with the rest of China's regions following. This new Japanese tactic effectively divides China into many smaller and weaker countries.

December 31st, 1941
Churchill puts continuing pressure on Roosevelt to declare war against Germany, as US convoys are being attacked by German U-Boat wolfpacks. Japanese forces invade the British possessions of Malaya and Borneo and the American occupied Philippines, with the intention of seizing the oilfields of the Dutch East Indies. The British island fortress of Singapore was captured in what Churchill considered one of the most humiliating British defeats of all time.

January 6th, 1942
Roosevelt makes the "Freedom of the Seas" speech to Congress meaning the right of a neutral nation to sail anywhere at anytime, even during a war. Despite this, many think the US should stay out of a "European War," that has nothing to do with them.

January 19th, 1942
After intense negotiations Japan refuses to leave the Phillipines or Soviet land. The US reinstates the oil embargo, and seizes all Japanese assets in the US. The first internment camp is established.

January 20th, 1942
In the aftermath of the freezing order, Japan shifts its military away from Soviet Union and for preparations for attacks in the southwestern Pacific--and on Pearl Harbour. Japan could not wage war on Soviet Union without supplies of oil; the Japanese navy did not believe that it could secure and hold oil-rich Indonesia as long as the undamaged U.S. battle fleet remained in the Pacific.

January 28th, 1942
Hitler once again urges that the Japanese not attack Pearl Harbour and bring the Americans into the war, worried by the disatrous defeat unfolding at Stalingrad. Prime Minister Konoe agrees on the condition that the Japanese navy be allowed to attack the American fleet should it advance toward Japanese held land, specifically the Phillipines and Indonesia. Japanese military redeployed in the Soviet Union.

February 6th, 1942
American-Japanese negotiations break down after Japan refuses to withdraw from the Soviet Union or Indonesia/Phillipines. The American navy at Pearl Harbour mobilises. The US issues a final demand for withdrawal.

February 10th, 1942
The ocean liner Normadie burns in New York harbour. Roosevelt once again calls for war with Germany.

February 19th, 1942
Japanese Type00 fighter planes and torpedo planes attack the US navy in the Pacific whilst it moves toward the Philipines. The planes sink the USS California and USS Shaw. The USS Tennessee, Raleigh and Detroit are badly damaged. Several Zeros are shot down.

February 20th, 1942
Following the attack, the US declares war on Japan, Germany and Italy. US forces begin to mobilise, headed for Indonesia.

From here on it I suspect it'd be the same 'island-hopping' style of fighting, but since the time line is off a few months the atomic bomb is dropped in October 1945.

[Kingox]

There is no point thinking about the what if's !!!!!!!!!!

[Blade]

Why not? If that is so, there is no point discussing history either because it has already happened :unsure:

[larry]

edit:Keep flaming in the war-zone please.