Reasons why the US lost the vietnam war

[Alpha_Pasta]

I'm starting a piece of coursework on the vietnam war - particularly why the Americans lost the war. I've started drafting using books i've been reading and classwork i've been doing in school. Its only a draft, i'm going to merge points, link them and form them into an essay later on.

I thought I would share this with you and open it for discussion. Feel free to comment, constructively criticize.

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Reasons why the United States lost the Vietnam War


VC Methods of warfare
· Ambushes, sabotage, guerrilla warfare
· Bombers shot down by soviet and Chinese supplied artillery
· Ho Chi Minh trail supplied the VC and NVA soldiers with troops, equipment and support, and this proved impossible to stop.
· VC would melt into jungle quickly after an attack, leaving no time for pursuit.
· ‘Hit and Run’ tactics used...i.e. a quick attack followed by a quick escape into the jungle.
· Fighting on familiar territory and led by experienced leaders, who had been fighting the French.



US Methods of warfare
· Inhumane methods of warfare – horrible chemicals and defoliant
· US used massive bombing attacks – but these were often ineffective because the VC would just return to their bunkers and tunnels
· Land was polluted from chemicals and defoliants
· Napalm sometimes used against civilians



Sort of war Americans trained for:
· Conventional warfare – i.e. hiding behind tanks, but this was ineffective in much of Vietnam, as tanks couldn’t be used
· Trained to fight against Russians in Europe – not in the Jungles of Vietnam.
. Climate Caused problems for the soldiers



The war at home:
· Draft Card burnings – by students who were called to fight
· Black Americans strongly against the war
o 12% America was black and 16% of the draftees were black
· Tet offensive convinced the American public that they were being lied to and the war was not being won and that it would not be won
· 160 soldiers were being killed per week by 1967
· The huge cost of war stopped health and housing reforms to US society
· The horrible chemicals used caused more opposition to the war.
· ‘Operation Rolling Thunder’ (massive bombing of N.Vietnam) caused suffering to civilians – and this strengthened anti-war resolve.
· Some huge anti war demonstrations.
· Hippie Groups were formed to promote peace and love.
· Criticism was directed at President Johnson for escalating the war.
· State of Kent University – National Guard troops fired on students protesting against the war.
· Large disapproval at the extension of the war into neutral Laos and Cambodia.
· Fighting the war was very expensive – and US civilians resented the tax rises it brought.
· Massacres like My Lai led to questioning by people at home to how the war was being fought.



VC commitment
· Vietnamese had been persecuted for so long – by the French etc.
· Passionately wanted reunification – in some cases, whatever the political system.
· Fighting back for their own land that had been taken from them.
· Dedicated to total victory and showed amazing resilience.


VC Tunnel Network
· Extensive, Hidden, US troops had no idea about the extent of it.
· VC and NVA troops could just retreat and disappear into the jungle when fighting became too intense for them.
· Despite the use of Tunnel Rats (small, specially trained US soldiers who crawled through tunnels), the US never fully got to grips with the issue.



South Vietnamese opposition
· Despite American GI’s showing affection and support (e.g. Army doctors helping civilians) S.Vietnamese tended to see them as conquerors/aggressors and tended to help NVA and VC more.
· American Defoliant (e.g. Agent Orange) killed crops and polluted environment.
· ‘Search and Destroy’ missions often resulted in villages being burned – when they were suspected to be hiding VC.
· American bombs caused massive destruction and suffering.
· South Vietnamese Government was corrupt and offered little to peasants, while VC and NVA gave the peasants land.
· Buddhist priests burned themselves alive in Saigon to protest against the Government and the war.
· Safe villages policy meant uprooting whole families and lives and moving them – this was massively unpopular.
· VC promised to improve their lives – while Americans and S.Vietnamese Governments appeared to offer nothing.



South Vietnamese Government Non-Commitment
· ARVN troops led incompetently.
· Poorly performed.
· Despite massive American aid, could no prop itself up.
· Corrupt Government.
· Troops not eager enough to save their own system.
· ARVN troops were under trained, low on morale and corrupt. Ground troops sometimes had to bribe their Air Force to fly missions in support of them.



Mass Media
· Unrestricted mass media coverage convinced people that the war was not being won.
· The media showed the reality of the war being fought, and helped to convince people that it couldn’t be won.
· Showed horrible effects on civilians (e.g. Civilians burning from Napalm), which strengthened the anti-war movement’s resolve.
· Later in the war, the media began to show how the S.Vietnamese Government was corrupt.



Tet Offensive
· This offensive involving 80 000 NVA and VC troops disheartened the US public.
· Despite the fact that the offensive was beaten down and all territory gained by the communists was regained – the scars remained.
· After this most of the media switched to an anti-war position.


Hopefully this will turn into an interesting discussion, I haven't really seen one about the vietnam war here yet


----->Alpha

[PZIV]

They didn't really "lose" the war I don't think. The point was to stop communism from spreading south and that main objective was completed.

They did however "lose" in the eyes of the American people as well as many military defeats to inferior forces. One reason I'd agree is that the VC and NVA were so good at ambush and guerilla warfare.

Just my two cents...

[MidnightRider]

The USA lost the war in the Nam for sure, as a political fight. The US Grunt on the ground, however did not. Most of what i see there Alpha is pretty good. I would like to add that quite often the VietCong would force the South Viets into ading them against the US. Many times US troops didnt know if the person they were dealing with were NVC or SV.

Pretty much what lost the war as a political fight in Vietman was the fact that for most of the war US troops were non-combat troops. Advisors only. The were not allowed to engage the NVC, only to advise the South as to what combat actions should be taken, advice that was quite often ignored.

To reideriate the fact that US troops were not to engage the VC is the fact that there was a huge "No Fly Zone", dubbed "Mig Alley", for US warplanes for most of the war. Despite this order US piolets often engaged in combat with Russian Migs outside of the no fly zone and followed the Migs into the no fly zone, simply because US pilots knew that they were flying against Russin piolts, rather than the VC. Better to shoot them down over the no fly zone, than risk fighting them later.

Over all what was the decideing factor in the border between north and south Vietnam to remain the same at the end of US involvment was the fact that US troops went into Vietnam with their hands tied for most of the war. The rules of engagment were something along the lines of not being able to return fire unless fired at 3 times. WTF? Kiss my ass, once is to many times. Send your troops into war, train them for war, but dont allow them to fight was the politcal concept behind the Vietnam war effort.

The media played a huge part in the anti war seniment in the States. This was the first war that was graphicly shown on the TV networks. The American ppl were appled by the very idea of war, any war, for the simple fact that they had never had it brought right into their liveing rooms before. Its easy to say "lets go fight VC" when you have really no idea what that looks like. On the other hand when you get graphic details of the day to day ops of an army in combat brought right to your home, it changes your prespective on the matter. This sparked huge amounts of protest form the American ppl.

Vietnam was a left over cold war fight. An acutal war rather than spy games and espinoge. It was a part of the "Commie Takeover" idea of the 50's. Only that idea had lost the grip on the American ppl that it once had. American ppls mind had reversed direction on their views and now wondered why the US was involved in a war that South Vietnamise should be fighting on their own.

[Alpha_Pasta]

Der Totenkopf;138757']They didn't really "lose" the war I don't think. The point was to stop communism from spreading south and that main objective was completed.

They did however "lose" in the eyes of the American people as well as many military defeats to inferior forces. One reason I'd agree is that the VC and NVA were so good at ambush and guerilla warfare.

Just my two cents...

Communism did spread, and the domino theory did prove to be semi-true. Pathet Lao took control in Laos, and as we should all know Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Thanks for your input...thats very interesting what you have to say MR - i'll look into the rules of engagement.

[MidnightRider]

Later in the war Alpha, after many troops were sent to the Nam, the rules of engagemnt changed, but prior to that the troops hands were really tied.

[relax 1.0]

They underestimated the tenacity and organisation of the VC and NVA
Despite dropping more tonnage of high explosive on Vietnam than the whole of WW2, the Americans could not stop the movement of troops or supplies to the south along the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
The North Vietnamese conducted conducted a ‘Peoples war’ in which everyone played a part (“If the truck is stuck, tear down the walls of your house”)
At first, most Americans supported the war. By 1970, the PEACE MOVEMENT had support from all sections of society and no government could ignore it.
After 1969, there were deep questions about the efficiency of US troops. There was a serious drugs problem; desertion rates were high and morale low. Many troops were ‘time-servers’, i.e. counted the days until the tour was over.
The US never really understood the culture of the Vietnamese people. Coca Cola, chewing gum, Biros and Dayville’s ice cream could not buy off their ancient beliefs.
America was not prepared to keep losing high numbers of casualties for such limited progress in a difficult jungle war, for which they were not suited.
The strength and resourcefulness of the VC ,for example the high complex CU CHI tunnel system the US never shut down
.

[BritishBulldog1]

MR has it spot on. I am sure that had the political interference not been there from the start, we would have seen a very different outcome.

You have however, listed some very important aspects of the engagement and would praise what you have so far put down.

BB1

[PZIV]

Midnight:

The Vietcong were the SV communists. The NVA was obviously north and worked in contact with the VC.

[Alpha_Pasta]

Thanks for the imput guys.

[Savage]

I'm starting a piece of coursework on the vietnam war - particularly why the Americans lost the war.


----->Alpha


They lost a war? When did this happen?


The VC were more adapted to fight in jungles because they had the russian and french to fight before the Americans so they had perfected the art well.

Americans went unprepared.

[DFC COL TAZZ]

The USA lost the war in the Nam for sure, as a political fight. The US Grunt on the ground, however did not. Most of what i see there Alpha is pretty good. I would like to add that quite often the VietCong would force the South Viets into ading them against the US. Many times US troops didnt know if the person they were dealing with were NVC or SV.

Pretty much what lost the war as a political fight in Vietman was the fact that for most of the war US troops were non-combat troops. Advisors only. The were not allowed to engage the NVC, only to advise the South as to what combat actions should be taken, advice that was quite often ignored.

To reideriate the fact that US troops were not to engage the VC is the fact that there was a huge "No Fly Zone", dubbed "Mig Alley", for US warplanes for most of the war. Despite this order US piolets often engaged in combat with Russian Migs outside of the no fly zone and followed the Migs into the no fly zone, simply because US pilots knew that they were flying against Russin piolts, rather than the VC. Better to shoot them down over the no fly zone, than risk fighting them later.

Over all what was the decideing factor in the border between north and south Vietnam to remain the same at the end of US involvment was the fact that US troops went into Vietnam with their hands tied for most of the war. The rules of engagment were something along the lines of not being able to return fire unless fired at 3 times. WTF? Kiss my ass, once is to many times. Send your troops into war, train them for war, but dont allow them to fight was the politcal concept behind the Vietnam war effort.

The media played a huge part in the anti war seniment in the States. This was the first war that was graphicly shown on the TV networks. The American ppl were appled by the very idea of war, any war, for the simple fact that they had never had it brought right into their liveing rooms before. Its easy to say "lets go fight VC" when you have really no idea what that looks like. On the other hand when you get graphic details of the day to day ops of an army in combat brought right to your home, it changes your prespective on the matter. This sparked huge amounts of protest form the American ppl.

Vietnam was a left over cold war fight. An acutal war rather than spy games and espinoge. It was a part of the "Commie Takeover" idea of the 50's. Only that idea had lost the grip on the American ppl that it once had. American ppls mind had reversed direction on their views and now wondered why the US was involved in a war that South Vietnamise should be fighting on their own.

midnight i agree with you on the first couple line's.the u.s could have finished the war real quick,and won.the political bs is what kept it going.:icon_question:

[Br0ken]

I think they lost because... The americans shot them.. the viet's shot americans.. but the americans got shot..

[Alpha_Pasta]

I think they lost because... The americans shot them.. the viet's shot americans.. but the americans got shot..

In a simplistic way...I guess so. :icon_biggrin:

[ColonelChaos007]

You can't say that we lost. Anyone who messes with us gets it up the a-hole. USA is the most advanced and powerful civilization in the world. You can't beat that.

And besides. There's a huge debate about people saying that it wasn't actually a war and we haven't really lost. It was just a military operation. But who cares anyways, USA all the way!

[Tizmo]

What happened in 1975 in Vietnam Chaos?

[ColonelChaos007]

Call me "James"

[Tizmo]

Ok James, what happened in 1975 in Vietnam?

[ColonelChaos007]

And call me "James" from now on. Any other names (And the like) I won't respond to.

It was a military conflict, they just said it was a war so that they could take all that stress off their backs and put down that we lost. But people say that we just came in to resolve the issue, yada yada blah blah.

[Tizmo]

You still have not answered my question...

[ColonelChaos007]

I don't need to.... WTF

[Tizmo]

Oh my God. I can already see that this debate is not going anywhere.

In 1975, the US retreated out of Vietnam = losing it.

I know this "debate" has not gone on for a long time, but I am bowing out already as you do not seem to know enough about the history. Like I said, this is not going anywhere.

[ColonelChaos007]

Likewise, mate. I win. You're not even from USA, so don't tell me that. USA can **** any country's ass so hard we'll rise every time from the ashes soon the Bald Eagle will turn into a Phoenix.

Don't be mad we beat your country in World War II, man.

[Tizmo]

I do not have to be from the usa to tell you that. Anyone who learns about history can debate about that. Any countries ass? What is happening in Iraq? I think your ass is getting kicked.

[ColonelChaos007]

Don't worry, man, I love you too.

Like I said, USA can **** any country's ass in the end. Doesn't matter, do you wanna wage war with us again and lose? So I suggest you give me my personal space and back away, cuz I'm not having this.

Because if you mess with me, you mess with the USA. REPRESENT! YO!

[Tizmo]

You do not want to have this because you can't stand criticism of the usa. Also, why would we wage war on you?

Random question: Do you want to go to the military when you are older?

[relax 1.0]

'James', the USA can not beat any country.

The USA did not beat Germany. It was a COMBINED effort from the British, French resistance, Polish resistance, Russia, Canadians, Italians, Austrailians - Practically any nation you can think of was invovled in the beating of Germany. Infact...I do not class it as beating Germany. Not all of Germany was following Hitler. These nation came together in a joint effort to defeat Hitler.

Take a look at the countries that the USA have put pressure on over the years. Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan. Hardly 'Top' opposition. The USA would never ever dream of touching China. They would be demolished. No other nation in the world would help them. Not even Americas arse-lickers....the UK. America is only targeting these countries to stop them for uniting and creating a super nation. America wants to expand to the far East only to increase any pressure they may have on China.

No offence to any Americas. But you James are a very good example of where the USA are going wrong in educating their children on the correct and exact history of the nations military past.

America backed out of Vietnam. If Fight A backed out during a fight with Fighter B, would you say he lost? I think you would...

[ColonelChaos007]

Actually I could care less what happens to the USA. But like I stated in my previous post, USA is the most advanced and WILL REMAIN to be the most advanced civilization around here. That's why we have illegal aliens coming here cuz they wanna have the rights and the so called "freedom" we offer.

But freedom doesn't come free, as we all know. (No sarcasm needed to be replied to me)

And is that a serious question? For all I know, some wise guy President is gonna go up there and probably call in a Martial Law to get around his term to increase his serving as President and before we know it it'll turn to this:

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/6195/jamesspecialpic2ye7sc7.jpg

Don't mind the text, and sorry for the huge wait, I was resizing this pic. It was a promotion picture for my past Nazi clan: 36th SS.

[ColonelChaos007]

I disagree. We gave you M4 Sherman tanks to help in the war, and this is how you treat us? The least you Tommies could do is sing "Rule Britannia" for us when we're taking a piss.

[relax 1.0]

The greatest civilisation on earth is mankind.


Oh and America and Freedom should not be put in the same sentance unless it involves the word 'No' in between. As far as I can see...America is trying not to create freedom within its people, but freedom from other countries. Effectivly the same as what Hitler had done. The American Movement is just as bad as what Hitler attempted.

[ColonelChaos007]

Nah. Lies. Slander. BS.

[relax 1.0]

Sorry for the double post but this is ticking me off.

First of all. Yes you did give us tanks. You gave us tanks because you wanted us to risk our lives creating oppurtunities for your troops to advance. Study the facts.

All we 'Tommy's' could do was sing 'Rule Britania' while you took a piss. Right. Which cartoon was that?

[ColonelChaos007]

Go grab a History book and read that for another year. Study the facts. Cartoon made by your mom. :icon_eek:

[relax 1.0]

Grab a history book and read it. I can't...seems like you've thrown them away to escape the truth :icon_neutral:

My mum has no experience in making cartoons. And please do not bring any personal issues into this. I want this to be a good clean debate. I don't want you to get banned...im having fun.

[ColonelChaos007]

I'm sorry I can't see what you're typing. All I'm seeing is "Yada yada blah blah." If you got something important to tell me, or have a need to talk to me, do it via xfire or something. Cuz I win this. (Nothing else said or replied to)

[Tizmo]

You know james, the u.s. military wants people like you. Brainwashed people who are nationalistic. And did you know that when these kind of people go into war, before they know it, they will be wounded and they will be screaming for their moms with their guts all spilling out.

[relax 1.0]

And the winner is...not you.

It is a debate. There is no winner in a debate. A debate is a matter of opinion - no right or wrong. I thought you would or grown up in the past year you been banned but seems like you havent. Maybe you should stop acting like a kid, stiffen up that upper lip and fight your side of the battle.

Totally agree Tizmo. These 'Gun-ho' Patriotic soldiers are what America wants. Give them a gun and point in the direction of the enemy....with an ambulence closely behind.

[ColonelChaos007]

Nah. Pipe down. I win. Go to hell, okay? USA can beat anyone.

[Tizmo]

What makes you think that you win by far? From how I see it, nobody wins.

[ColonelChaos007]

Whatever you say, bro, I love you too.

*Chants* USA all the way! :icon_eek:

[relax 1.0]

USA All the way?

Which country you invading now? (No offence meant)

You know, a debate between people can show signs of intelligence and knowledge. With you...they made an exception.

[Tizmo]

My God you are brainswashed. Your replies clearly show that you cannot take ANY criticism of the u.s.

[ColonelChaos007]

Yeah, I love you too. <3

[relax 1.0]

The only thing you seem to love is 'being loyal' to your country. Im sure if other americans (Someone like MR - he's a good american) reads your posts...he will want to deport you himself.

[ColonelChaos007]

Dude. What did I just say earlier. Stop being an arse, and if you really wanna start something with me, I suggest you talk to me via XFIRE or some other IM system and the like.

If not, then cram it up your arse, and go away. And who cares about MR. Probably just some *mumbles into faint audio*

[relax 1.0]

Okay what is your xfire?

[ColonelChaos007]

Umm. Are you blind, mate? It's in my sig.

[relax 1.0]

Im not blind..and Im not your mate.

[Tizmo]

Ok, this ends here. There is no point whatsoever in these two thread anymore, because of you Chaos. We were only trying to put some logic and sense into you. But, no, you do not want that. You are so brainwashed that you do not even notice it. I am ****ing tired of reading your pointless bull****. I think everyone else is as well...

These threads end here and will therefore be closed.

closed


P.S. - Please grow up...

[Alpha_Pasta]

You can't say that we lost. Anyone who messes with us gets it up the a-hole. USA is the most advanced and powerful civilization in the world. You can't beat that.

And besides. There's a huge debate about people saying that it wasn't actually a war and we haven't really lost. It was just a military operation. But who cares anyways, USA all the way!

No doubt, you are the most poweful civilization in the world. But you lost in Vietnam - and it looks like you're losing in Iraq. Millitary operation, you're right - it wasn't a war, as war was never officially declared. But it meant the same.

Chaos - better watch yourself mate.

[Tizmo]

That's why we have illegal aliens coming here cuz they wanna have the rights and the so called "freedom" we offer.
I know that I closed this thread, but I figured I must comment on this. Chaos, you must also think outside the u.s. point of view. You probably do not know the answer to what might be causing these immigrants to go to the u.s. because you do not want to know the answer.

Ok, this is my last post in this thread. It will remain closed from here on.

[BritishBulldog1]

Jeez, I'm off line for 24 hours and he is back doing what he does best, causing Chaos.

You James, portray the image of America that is causing so many people to hate America. Americans with your attitude and total lack of correct historical information will be the USA's downfall. God forbid that America has to rely on the likes of you to run the country when you are old enough.

Just take note, the ONLY modern country to have won a war against another modern country, using modern conventional weapons, since WWII is Britain!

If you cannot enter into a sensible debate, it's best you don't enter the debate at all. You've had a timeout and if you continue with your stupid, inane attitude, you will find that the next timeout is permanent!

BB1