PZIV
09-02-2006, 05:59 PM
I've seen Enemy at the Gates, and I loved it. I've heard everything about Vasily, but I often wonder where German, or other nation snipers were in the whole war. So I did a little research and here is what I've found.
First off, it seems the German soldiers thought sniping to be less honorable (which to an extent I agree). They did have some, but not many were in the SS, most were in the Wehrmacht.
The SS had very few snipers as they viewed this role as a dishonorable way to fight, this was left for the Wehrmacht.
Also, I did some more research and not only in Wikipedia. Wikipedia shows that Vasily had around 930 verified kills, but that number seemed way to high. I took looks at other sites and found them to be actually much lower. Still a very good sniper, but there were many other snipers, especially Soviet one's that were better.
Soviet propaganda was rife with fictitious stories to boost morale during a time when the war was so uncertain. (on the topic of Vasily kill count)
Vasili Zaitsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 400 (list of kill counts from an other source)
All of his 242 verified kills were all made in the period of a few months, from October of 1942, soon after he arrived in Stalingrad, up until the time he was wounded by shrapnel in January of 1943 (an other source)
Okay, now that I've done some research, it seems as though, for one, Vasily did not have as many kills as he is claimed to have had, and two, it was made up (in a good strategy) by the Soviet propaganda minister. He has the 14th highest kill ranking in the war, and by no means the best. Many Soviet snipers are ahead of him, but yet they are not mentioned.
Alright, we've cleared that up, so let's move on to the other nations snipers and why they are not mentioned so much.
Simo Häyhä is was a Finnish sniper that ranked 1st in the list of snipers.
was a Finnish soldier, and is widely considered to be the most successful sniper in history.
All of Häyhä's kills were accomplished within three months prior to injuries caused by an enemy bullet. Before his injury, the Russians tried several plans to get rid of him, including counter snipers and artillery strikes. Their best result was tearing the back of his coat away with shrapnel, but leaving Häyhä himself unscratched.
Finnish frontline figure from the battle field of Kollaa places the number of Häyhä's sniper kills at 542.
and it was in the Kollaa area were the famous battle of "Killer Hill" took place with 32 Finns battling 4,000 Soviet soldiers. These were the hunting grounds of Simo Häyhä and it should be noted that even against massive odds the Kollaa positions were still in Finnish hands at the end of the war
Also, there was an other Finnish sniper that ranked ahead of Vasily. His name was Sulo Kolkka.
During 105 days of combat Kolkka was credited with more than 400 enemy kills as a sniper in the Winter War.
Now, for the German snipers in the war. As I stated earlier, the Germans did not always find it honorable to be a sniper. In fact, they almost detested it. There were however many great snipers. One is the famous Erwin Konig. He was the major that Vasily "killed" and took his sights, but the funny thing is. There is absolutly no records in the German archives of this man.
Major Erwin König was named by the Soviets as the best German sniper during World War II, with more than 400 kills. While Soviet sources pitted him against Vasily Grigoryevich Zaitsev in their propaganda of the time
...been found in any German records, and historians are sure he never actually existed
It also says Vasily claims that the Konig was a sniper of the SS, but there were no SS divisions in Stalingrad, as well as the fact that snipers were looked down upon especially in the SS. Also, he is called a Major, but the German military believed snipers were not fit to lead, but instead just fight. This again leads me to believe, there is no such thing as a "great duel" Vasily won.
Now I looked for Soviet snipers (there were many) that were better than Vasily.
I found the name Ivan Mihailovich Sidorenko stand out a lot, but I can't find ANY information on the man himself? I search and find his numbers, but no info on the man himself, which seems strange to me. Possibly an other Soviet propaganda attempt? Alright, maybe he's just not easy to find, especially on Wikipedia, so I search for the second ranked on. His name is Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin. Again! I can't find anything on that man either! I don't know what to say here folks.
Anyway, I have to take a shower now, but I'll leave you with this bit of information. Hopefully it'll be educational to you all, and hopefully wont ruin Enemy at the Gates for you!
First off, it seems the German soldiers thought sniping to be less honorable (which to an extent I agree). They did have some, but not many were in the SS, most were in the Wehrmacht.
The SS had very few snipers as they viewed this role as a dishonorable way to fight, this was left for the Wehrmacht.
Also, I did some more research and not only in Wikipedia. Wikipedia shows that Vasily had around 930 verified kills, but that number seemed way to high. I took looks at other sites and found them to be actually much lower. Still a very good sniper, but there were many other snipers, especially Soviet one's that were better.
Soviet propaganda was rife with fictitious stories to boost morale during a time when the war was so uncertain. (on the topic of Vasily kill count)
Vasili Zaitsev W.W. II U.S.S.R. 400 (list of kill counts from an other source)
All of his 242 verified kills were all made in the period of a few months, from October of 1942, soon after he arrived in Stalingrad, up until the time he was wounded by shrapnel in January of 1943 (an other source)
Okay, now that I've done some research, it seems as though, for one, Vasily did not have as many kills as he is claimed to have had, and two, it was made up (in a good strategy) by the Soviet propaganda minister. He has the 14th highest kill ranking in the war, and by no means the best. Many Soviet snipers are ahead of him, but yet they are not mentioned.
Alright, we've cleared that up, so let's move on to the other nations snipers and why they are not mentioned so much.
Simo Häyhä is was a Finnish sniper that ranked 1st in the list of snipers.
was a Finnish soldier, and is widely considered to be the most successful sniper in history.
All of Häyhä's kills were accomplished within three months prior to injuries caused by an enemy bullet. Before his injury, the Russians tried several plans to get rid of him, including counter snipers and artillery strikes. Their best result was tearing the back of his coat away with shrapnel, but leaving Häyhä himself unscratched.
Finnish frontline figure from the battle field of Kollaa places the number of Häyhä's sniper kills at 542.
and it was in the Kollaa area were the famous battle of "Killer Hill" took place with 32 Finns battling 4,000 Soviet soldiers. These were the hunting grounds of Simo Häyhä and it should be noted that even against massive odds the Kollaa positions were still in Finnish hands at the end of the war
Also, there was an other Finnish sniper that ranked ahead of Vasily. His name was Sulo Kolkka.
During 105 days of combat Kolkka was credited with more than 400 enemy kills as a sniper in the Winter War.
Now, for the German snipers in the war. As I stated earlier, the Germans did not always find it honorable to be a sniper. In fact, they almost detested it. There were however many great snipers. One is the famous Erwin Konig. He was the major that Vasily "killed" and took his sights, but the funny thing is. There is absolutly no records in the German archives of this man.
Major Erwin König was named by the Soviets as the best German sniper during World War II, with more than 400 kills. While Soviet sources pitted him against Vasily Grigoryevich Zaitsev in their propaganda of the time
...been found in any German records, and historians are sure he never actually existed
It also says Vasily claims that the Konig was a sniper of the SS, but there were no SS divisions in Stalingrad, as well as the fact that snipers were looked down upon especially in the SS. Also, he is called a Major, but the German military believed snipers were not fit to lead, but instead just fight. This again leads me to believe, there is no such thing as a "great duel" Vasily won.
Now I looked for Soviet snipers (there were many) that were better than Vasily.
I found the name Ivan Mihailovich Sidorenko stand out a lot, but I can't find ANY information on the man himself? I search and find his numbers, but no info on the man himself, which seems strange to me. Possibly an other Soviet propaganda attempt? Alright, maybe he's just not easy to find, especially on Wikipedia, so I search for the second ranked on. His name is Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin. Again! I can't find anything on that man either! I don't know what to say here folks.
Anyway, I have to take a shower now, but I'll leave you with this bit of information. Hopefully it'll be educational to you all, and hopefully wont ruin Enemy at the Gates for you!